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Talk:Alluka Zoldyck/Archive 1
Yes, This is a Wiki In academic sources, Wikipedia, even government documents many people who are designated male at birth or who have genitalia that goes with XY chromosomes are referred to as the gender with which they identify. Chelsea Manning's gender quickly and swiftly changed in news media after she came out. Carmen Carrera's Wikipedia page is notably written with female pronouns, as is any unbiased, non-transphobic media written about her, despite documented evidence that she has not had gender reassignment surgery of her genitals. Equating physical anatomy for human beings, or anything with sentience, to gender is ''dangerous, biased, and does not meet professional standards of neutrality. Calling it transphobic may seem like a buzzword, but it refers to more than that. By forcibly assinging a male gender based on anatomy, it goes against standards for responsible media and enacts erasure on trans people. It's that simple. People who aggressively maintain that "being physically a male" means that Alluka should be referred to with male pronouns are themselves biased and ignoring how language operates in the world we live in today. Whether or not this is intentional is not the point; it is an error that we must correct. Blumenblatt (talk) 02:57, February 22, 2015 (UTC) I'm pretty sure that does not happen when 1- they are a fictional character; 2- said character is an 11-yer-old child who is very likely innocent about sexuality, has never stated anything about his gender and has not had contact with other humans for years. So yes, I do believe that in Alluka's case, the fact that he is biologically male DOES count. As for the matter of the importance of language, I understand, that is why I believe that the behaviour of a person should not be influenced by the word that is used to describe it: pronouns were born to distinguish biological differencies, not comportamental ones. How does this change the identity of a person? To me, it looks like some people need to grow up. And sorry if I may appear rough, but upon reading just how rude people have been to me and many others, I can't belive some can still act as victims. The same goes for you: you are using the word "transphobic" just because you refuse to acknowledge an opinion that is different from yours without it being born out of discrimination. Martialmaniac (talk) 20:37, February 26, 2015 (UTC) I don't see one example of someone being rude to you on this page; but I do see you speaking authoritatively on a subject on which it is clear you are not very familiar. I don't mean that as an insult -- but to demonstrate, this has nothing to do with sexuality. Alluka's gender has nothing to do with to whom she is attracted or will interact with sexually. We are talking about how the mind interacts with the body and the environment -- a matter of identity. The difference is that this IS something over which kids can have total cognizance, because it doesn't involve something specific to older audiences like sex (though that's not to say young people can't know their sexual orientation). Moreover, overwhelmingly kids exemplify awareness of their gender identity at extremely young ages and kids that openly identify with a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth OVERWHELMINGLY continue to identify with that gender for the rest of their lives. That's true for kids as young as 5. There are a number of studies in different academic fields pertaining to this topic, organizations that put out informational literature (i.e., Gender Spectrum), and associations specifically for trans kids. When you say something like "said character is an 11-yer-old child who is very likely innocent about sexuality," you're blatantly exposing yourself as someone who hasn't made much of an attempt to understand this topic. So it’s baffling that you would speak so confidently and that this page would take your side of the argument. Whether or not we are talking about a fictional character, the choice to explicitly ignore how she identifies herself in the manga/anime is a glimmer into a deeply felt issue experienced by a number of trans people (an issue that implicates a number of other issues as well, some as severe as public violence and suicide). Tsozsecond (talk) 07:11, February 27, 2015 (UTC) First, the page does not side with my theory, but with what the admins have decreed. Considering it is a Shounen manga we are talking about, I don't think you can blame them for what they have decided. Second, the majority of people who oppose them are "contributors" who have never done anything for the wiki except ordering what should be done with this page. Take a look at my talk page, or even better, that of the admins, if you don't believe that I can have reasons to be angered. I'll say it again: our view on the matter -or at least, that of many of us- comes from our wanting to be exact, not discrimination, as the fact that there has never been anyone shouting "How gross, a boy dressing like a girl!" should prove. Initially I might have been against using "she" for a transgender man, and I even thought it would be regarded as offensive, but that is because I thought that a pronoun could not change the identity of a person: using the same example, he had also been a man before, so I thought it could be offensive towards him to use "her", because it depauperated him of a part of what he had been. Though I do realize it is an idealized point of view. Just a little clarification: '''this is about Alluka, NOT Nanika. Nanika might be female in gender, but personally I think Alluka has never been called a girl, except when Killua was speaking about Nanika: in fact, he called Alluka his "little brother" when talking to More, and used "sister" only when referring to Nanika's powersl. If you can indicate a case when Alluka has asked to be treated like a girl, I'll side with you on this matter. Not in an episode subbed by fans or a non-official translation, of course, since Japanese pronouns are rather tricky. Your wanting Alluka to be transgender and his being it or not are two different things. Perhaps I'm wrong and he really has considered himself a girl. What I'm saying is: prove it. Then the he/she issue will be seen under a totally new light. Because if you want to relate this discussion to the entire society, the fact that you are exploiting a kid without evidence could be regarded as disgusting. I'm kind of baffled by the fact that you dared preach me about "other issues", but since you don't know me, I guess it couldn't be helped. If I have sounded too authoritative, I apologize, I did not believe it was possible to have a civil conversation on this topic. Martialmaniac (talk) 14:18, February 27, 2015 (UTC) My suspicion is that the people you claim have done nothing for this wiki except complain on this page came to doing so in the same way I did: they were disturbed by the fact that this page not only referred to Alluka as a male, but insisted on doing so. In my case, I was excited to read Alluka's page when I found this wiki because I thought she was a really interesting character; but was stopped dead in my tracks and became too distracted to focus on anything by the insistent use of male identification for the character. I couldn't enjoy the page in the way that I had for other characters and was driven to see it corrected. Didn't realize that made my opinion less valid. You're asking for more proof than has been needed to determine the gender for any other character in the manga/anime. There are plenty of instances where I think it's clear that Alluka identifies as a girl that apparently don't meet the elevated expectations to "prove" that Alluka is female. It's not about "wanting" Alluka to be trans (and by the way, Alluka can be a girl without being trans; the point would remain the same that she should be properly identified), it's about wanting her to be identified on this page the way she is appropriately identified in the series. Nonetheless, at the very least,' why not refer to Alluka with they/them pronouns? '''If the sentiment is that there isn't enough evidence to make a claim in either direction (though lots of peple think there is...), then the page shouldn't take either side and should just identify Alluka neutrally. Like another user pointed out (Sadteshimas), this wiki obviously has done so with other characters for really very little evidence, but won't even change the pronouns of a character who self-identifies as "she." With the whole Nanika/Alluka divide argument you seem to be looking for a reason to be against appropriately identifying Alluka. Tsozsecond (talk) 18:22, February 27, 2015 (UTC) Ok, first of all I want to say I'm sorry. I viewed this topic as a mere grammatical discussion, but I realize that to some people it can be much more important than that. Please, allow me to explain. I know no one who is transexual, but not because I try to avoid the: simply, my town is one of those where different things and people can live a less courageous but more serene life staying hidden or living; but if I did, of course I would respect them, and call them the way they are most comfortable with. I'd gain nothing from pretending to empathize, so please, believe me. I just do not believe that a "crossgender" pronoun should be used on official records because I still believe it is inexact and seriously depauperates that person's identity. Homosexual people, for example, hate being addressed as if they were of the opposite gender, so this kind of influenced my opinion, too. But, if this corresponds to what wikipedia has decided, of course I'll comply. Still, if you were so bothered by the fact that this page used male pronouns, why shouldn't the opposite also be true? Alluka was not disrespected in any way, and there are also reasons to believe that he should not be referenced using feminine pronouns (I'll get to the them/they part later). Besides, as I said before, this is a shounen manga: it is unlikely that things such as having non-binary characters would happen. Personally, I can't really decide if Killua is in love with Gon or not, but due to this reasoning, I exclude it, until the oh-so-famous confirmation from the author comes. Now, for the matter at hand (sorry about the parentheses and paragraphs, thought they might be easier to read): we recently came up with the proof that Alluka is male, due to Killua calling him "ototo" ("younger brother) at the phone with Morel (can't remember the episode though). This was probably ignored because of this discussion, not that many would read the "Gender Ambiguity" section either way. As for our arbitrarily deciding the gender of a character, please tell me one instance: we originally did so with Riakke, a character who was only mentioned as Morel's firend, but specified his gender is unknown; on the other hand, even though Neferpitou refers to himself using mainly masculine pronouns and the author has a long history of creating androgynous characters, his page use they/them. The prof I asked for is not found in the manga, nor in the anime, though I might be wrong: every time Killua uses feminine pronouns, he refers to Nanika and her power, while he calls Alluka "brother". In his most famous manga, Yu Yu Hakusho, Togashi had created a character who had 7 different personalities, one of which was that of a woman, so I thought about creating a page specifically for Alluka's female psyche, Nanika, of course counting her as a female character and Alluka as male (I was wrong when I said he was too young, seems some already know at his age. This whole discussion has pushed me to investigate a little more thoroughly, and I sincerely apologize if some of my previous statements were regarded as offensive), unless evidence that he considers himself a girl comes up. Since his main body and personality - due to the other being created by Nen - are male, using male pronouns seemed a better choice than using them/they, due to us having more hints than in Neferpitou's case. Watching the anime again, though, I realized how important Nanika really is, that is why I currently believe that splitting this page in "Alluka" and "Nanika" would be better, despite initially suggesting it as a sort of compromise. However, to do so, I'd need to put my arguments together coherently, which I am trying to do at the moment. Using them/rìthey might be too confusionary, considering also Nanika's presence and the fact that there are differencies between the two. I see it more as a temporary, partial solution, though this does not make it a worthless one. Perhaps the admins have already talked about it, you should try to find out, I don't have the authority to speak in their place, since now I am not talking about the point we agreed upon. Lastly, forgive me if I repeat myself: until someone can demonstrate that Alluka, independently from Nanika, considers himself a girl, I do believe that this page should consider him a boy, as this is the most probable case. Martialmaniac (talk) 15:44, March 1, 2015 (UTC) ---- Allow me to chime in once again. My arguments have been largely stringent and not addressing others´ because I have a bad habit of assuming my arguments stand on their own. I will address several points you and other users have made and attempt to do so in a coherent manner, so I will be numbering the topics. 1 & 2 are disclaimers/advice. 3-10 are arguments/evidence. 1. The amount of participation any of the users here have had on the wiki is irrelevant to whether we are right or wrong about this topic. People may come here because they have strong emotions or strong information to contribute. The amount of edits made does not change that. I am a busy college student, heavily involved with volunteer work and professional programs. While I have made some edits on the wiki, they are not nearly as extensive as participation in other wikis I have made on other accounts when I was younger and less busy, though I do have ''extensive ''experience building and formatting wikis. Being here longer or even being an admin does not make you more right or wrong, though it may give you more authority over controlling information. You have the ability to wield this authority properly by listening to reasoned proposals based on a mixture of logic and compassion - or not. I can say things like "this must change," and "this is the decent, professional, or logical thing to do," but you can discount it without listening if you choose, and I recognize this. 2. I have also grown up in ultra-conservative areas; however, I have also made friends who are trans. I suggest connecting with people on the internet if no opportunities arise in your life. It's at least a start. If you feel awkward approaching people, do your best to learn. When speaking on a topic, the best you can do is become informed so that you are able to make good decisions. I, myself, am cisgender, but I have had close friends who have been harrassed to the point of attempted suicide on account of their gender identities. I have also had friends who function perfectly fine and rarely get bullied. The bottom line is trans people are people just like anyone esle. There is a learning curve for all cis people, and the best thing you can do if you are worried about being uninformed is listen to trans people and read what they have to say about their experiences if you don't know any in person. This is not only a matter of sensitivity but also professionalism to develop, starting with places like wikis, if you have ever have to work on subjects relating to trans people or interact with trans people. 3. Killua never explicitly refers to Alluka or Nanika as his brother; however he refers to Alluka as his sister, ''Morel ''is the one that refers to Alluka as Killua's younger brother, presumably because the Zoldyck family is highly publicized and the fact that they have "five sons" is common accepted knowledge in the Hunter x Hunter universe, evidenced by the tour guide's explanation to Leorio, Gon, and Kurapika during the Zoldyck Family Arc. Killua just doesn't bother correcting him, probably because he is pressed for time. However, when Gotoh asks Killua why he brought along Canary, Killua replies that ''Alluka ''(not Nanika) is a girl and thus must have someone who can properly attend to her. Alluka listens and does not contradict him. When Alluka first asks him to pat her head, she is asking as Alluka, as she refers to him as "big brother" and not Killua; as the exposition later notes, their first interactions were not Nanika making requests at all, but Alluka. Additionally, I believe that when Killua was asking himself "How could I leave my little sister like this?" it was in reference to Alluka instead of Nanika because he had not yet accepted the fact that he needed to protect Alluka along with Nanika and was primarily worried about Alluka's well-being. 4. Databook evidence is not irrelevant, but that does not make it the be all- end all, We spell Kurapika as "Kurapika" and not "Kurapica," Zoldyck as "Zoldyck" and not "Zaoldyck." Togashi retconned Maha Zoldyck to be Zeno's grandfather rather than great grandfather. Togashi released the book eleven years ago, and the series has changed since then. This is not to say that book is irrelevant, but that when we are presented with evidence in the manga that ''contradicts it, then that information is less important. (On another note, I am of the opinion that the databook in some ways outlines how the Hunter x Hunter world/''Hunter's Association'' views the Zoldyck family, rather than how it actually is, but that is less important to this argument.) 5. Respecting Alluka's humanity is integral to respecting her gender identity. Many people have said this, but Alluka and Nanika have been ostracized from the family, locked up, dehumanized, called an object, thing, etc. While it may be confusing because the rest of the world seems not to understand, the one person who does care for and understand his little sister(s) refers to Alluka/Nanika with feminine pronouns. While people like Morel who are ignorant of the situation are blameless, it is important to note that those who have had a hand in controlling and manipulating Alluka are also the ones who adamantly call her a boy an it. 6. Alluka shares an identity with Nanika. They are different personalities, but both Killua's little sister. They are distinct, but inextricably linked as Alluka asserts when she tells Killua off for trying to make Nanika go away. Alluka aspects Killua to treat Nanika the same way he treats her and vice versa. While it is possible for them to identify differently, I find this unlikely, especially when up against questionable evidence like how abusive family refers to Alluka or a datbook that Togashi has already contradicted. 7. Alluka plays with feminine toys and dresses as a girl. Kalluto dresses in a kimono, which boys have still traditionally worn in Japanese culture (I do not argue that Kalluto is a girl; I think he is a much different case from Alluka); however, Alluka dresses in a similar way to a shrine maiden. She plays with dolls and stuffed animals (in the anime they even made a Sailor Moon/Tuxedo mask reference). She has been doing this for years, even while her family still dressed her as a boy; many trans children often manifest their identities first by playing with the type of toys associated with their identities. While these preferences do not automatically make anyone a girl, combined with the most important evidence of how she referred to herself and how Killua treats her, they reinforce that Alluka is meant to be a girl. 8. In order for the wiki to meet certain standards of professionalism and unbiased information, changing Alluka's pronouns makes the most sense. As I have iterated before, professional media that is unbiased, researched, and polite refers to people based on their gender identities, not which or how many chromosomes someone has. I have previously referenced examples of Carmen Carrera and Chelsey Snow to demonstrate how professional media has treated trans women. 9. Shounen manga are not excluded from having nonbinary, non-straight, or trans characters. In Yu Yu Hakusho, Togashi actually includes a trans woman as a minor villain when Kuwabara and Yusuke go to rescue Yukina (though Yusuke is kind of an asshole to her). He also has a trans man, Kyoko in Level E (not shounen, but published in'' Shounen Jump''). Togashi has already included trans characters in various works. The author is just as, if not more, important than the category of manga (and Yu Yu Hakusho was shounen), and I do not see how it follows that he would not write a trans character when he has. 10. Lastly, if there is no consensus, using neutral pronouns is, at least, a'' neutral'' decision, In fact using they/their/them may even be most appropriate for this page because it refers to Alluka and Nanika in conjunction who are two personalities (they). Although I support the use of feminine pronouns the most, I am willing to compromise so that she is at least not gendered with male pronouns which many people, including myself, view as language that an abusive family forces on Alluka. Labelling Alluka as a "male," and simultaneously claiming there is "not enough information" is contradictory. If people actually believe her identity is that unclear, it does not follow to take a clear position on her gender and label her male. Blumenblatt (talk) 18:21, March 21, 2015 (UTC) I think it's great that everyone is having this sort of discussion with each other, because I can definitely see HxH's fanbase not being a group of people who have necessarily looked into gender theory (which isn't a bad thing, obviously), but just looking through this page of dialogue, I've seen a lot of people arguing for the use of neutral/female pronouns, but I haven't actually seen anything written by actual trans people? As an actual, live, transgender person and fan of Hunter x Hunter, though I can't say it doesn't surprise me, I will say that I find it deeply offensive and hurtful more than anything else, that an entire page about a little fictional trans girl (which is!!! such a rarity!!! and it makes me!!! so happy!!! to see!!! so well written!!!) refers to her as a boy. I'm not blaming anyone who has no reason to have done research on gender theory for not having done so, but I'm just going to quickly say that in all officiality, in modern gender theory, because the mind is in the body, there's not actually such a thing as "male-bodied", "female-minded", so even that does not validate the use of male pronouns for Alluka. She is a girl (because she says she is a girl), therefore her body is that of a girl. If that doesn't make sense to you, then that's A-okay, I'll move on to my other points, I just thought I'd leave that here in case anyone was interested/curious, because I probably have enough information on gender identity up in my head to last everyone who sees this five lifetimes. I can totally see you being confused about Alluka’s gender and labeling her gender that way: Confusing. For people who happen to be in communities where they know more openly trans people and recognize off the bat that that’s clearly the kind of person Alluka is, I could see you arguing that Togashi wrote her that way for representation purposes. Maybe he did? I don’t know. I'm literally just a random teenage anime fan. But honestly, from a writing perspective it’s probably purely for the sake of the narrative. If you think about it, deciding to have Alluka be transgender makes it a lot easier to convey her character’s role in the story. He's using the mistreatment of trans women in society (something everyone is familiar with, even if you don’t know it) as a way to highlight just how objectified Alluka is, for totally separate story-specific reasons than just her gender identity, even though it’s obvious she’s objectified for this reason too. I think it takes a very basic plot point understanding to see that he makes sure you know Killua is the only one in the family who really cares for her well being, and also that she is abused and neglected by the rest of the family for having this great and terrible power. Those two things are sort of obvious, right? I feel like just in saying that, then applying what we know—''ehem'', what we have in ‘concrete evidence’—to the situation about the ways these two groups of people refer to her gender (the “people who actually care about her” vs “people who only see her as a tool that’s useless until they need it” categories), then Alluka’s gender is very easy to understand and identify as female (ex: Killua using female pronouns, Illumi using male pronouns). This is how I would explain the Gender Confusion/Ambiguity. I don’t think it takes too long, I’m just a wordy person? Her gender is not ambiguous. She’s not like Pitou or Soul Eater’s Crona where people convinced they have to be either male or female can technically validly argue about it all day long. Alluka is stated to be a girl. Multiple times. She uses female pronouns. She sees herself as a girl. She IS a girl. So I guess I’m just going to say I’m confused? It would be really cool if someone could clear up my confusion about why this entire page about her that all sorts of people are looking at and taking as reliable information sides with the proved-to-be unreliable antagonists of her storyline? And I hate to say it, but as far as the guidebook goes, it's probably worth considering the fact that this majority of people (who aren't queer theory majors) would assume that because Alluka is clearly someone who was assigned male at birth, she must "officially" be a boy. Fans usually tend to sympathize with protagonists (in this case, Killua), and it seems like most people here actually do, I’m just really confused about this page and how this issue even came into being to begin with. And just my own little anecdote: when I was first recommended the anime and my friend mentioned that one of the main characters had a little brother who wasn't really a brother, because she was "a girl in her head", I immediately looked her up. Because I could not believe that there was maybe an actual trans character in the show. And I went and I read this wiki page, and all I had to do was read the description of the "gender confusion" section to know that she was transgender, and a girl. And in all honesty, especially after I had actually watched it, it made me feel kind of sick knowing this was out here. Because it's such a victory that she was written the way she was. To me, it was so clear that she was a girl, and I was so happy about that, because!!! That never happens. Ever. I mean this is the real deal. And I think it's just a shame, because to me this page takes back a lot of the progress we've made with the existence of this character at all. Because I see Alluka as something I'm so proud of. Her open presence in this story is something that brings me so much joy, and something that gave this story so much more dimension and sentimentality for me. I would really appreciate an explanation, and I know that a lot of people are confused, and your confusion is completely valid and understandable, but I would like to think that this may have explained some things for those of you that are? I’m not trying to be an ass, the idea that people are stupid for not sharing in your experiences is ridiculous, and anyone that's trying to argue for Alluka's page to use she/her pronouns that way is most definitely not going to succeed, I’m just trying to get somewhere with this page, is all. Thanks, I guess? :) - ummmmmmmmmmm